The Ezra Klein Show: The Other Divide

Hey everyone, Ezra Klein here. You know me, you know this show: we’re knee-deep in the political trenches, dissecting every twist and turn of the American experiment. And frankly, I love it. But here’s the thing: we, the politically obsessed, are kinda… a niche group.

Today, we’re diving into this “other divide” with Yanna Krupnikov, a professor at the University of Michigan, and co-author of the brilliantly titled book, “The Other Divide: Polarization and Disengagement in American Politics.” Yanna, welcome to the show!

Yanna Krupnikov: Thanks for having me, Ezra!

Ezra Klein: So, Yanna, tell us, who are these mysterious beings on the other side of this “involvement divide”? Are they mythical creatures, like unicorns or moderate Republicans?

Yanna Krupnikov: (Laughs) Well, they’re definitely real, and far more common than some of us might think! The truth is, most Americans aren’t glued to cable news or engaging in Twitter wars. In fact, a lot of folks find excessive political talk a total buzzkill. Imagine that!

Beyond the Political Junkie Stereotype

Ezra Klein: It’s true, sometimes I forget there’s a world beyond my Twitter feed. But let’s dig into this idea of “political involvement.” What does that actually look like, and how does it play out in our polarized landscape?

Yanna Krupnikov: It’s a spectrum, not a binary. On one end, you’ve got the super-engaged folks, posting fiery takes online, devouring every political hot take. They’re vocal, they’re invested, and let’s be honest, they often can’t stand the other side!

Then, as you move along the spectrum, you find people less interested, less informed, and less likely to let politics dominate their dinner conversations. And you know what? That’s perfectly fine! Not everyone needs to be a political junkie.

Ezra Klein: I feel personally attacked, but I’ll allow it. But seriously, I think we’ve all encountered that person at a party who just won’t. Stop. Talking. About. Politics. And honestly, it can be exhausting, regardless of their political leanings!

The Trump Effect: Are the Less Involved Shifting Right?

Ezra Klein: So, where do these less involved voters fit into the grand scheme of the upcoming election, especially post-Trump conviction? Recent polls seem to suggest a shift towards Trump among this group. What’s going on there?

Yanna Krupnikov: It’s complex, but a few things stand out. First, the media landscape has changed drastically. We’re in the era of media fragmentation, with people getting their news from all sorts of sources, often with strong ideological leans.

Second, there’s a deep sense of anti-establishment sentiment brewing. Many folks feel left behind, ignored by the political elite, and that resonates with Trump’s “outsider” persona, even with a conviction on his record.

Finally, there’s a disconnect between the narratives presented by mainstream media and the lived experiences of many less involved voters. They hear about a booming economy, but their wages are stagnant, their bills are piling up.

Lost in the Information Overload: Fragmentation and the Involvement Divide

Ezra Klein: It’s interesting you mention the media landscape. It feels like we’re drowning in information, yet somehow, people are more divided than ever. How does this information overload contribute to the involvement divide?

Yanna Krupnikov: It’s a paradox, isn’t it? We have access to more information than ever before, but it’s also incredibly easy to exist in an echo chamber, consuming only information that confirms our pre-existing biases. This creates a feedback loop, where people become more extreme in their views and less willing to engage with opposing perspectives.

For the highly involved, this often translates into hyper-engagement, constantly consuming and sharing political content. It’s like a full-time job! But for the less involved, it can lead to complete avoidance. They’re overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information, much of which feels irrelevant to their daily lives.

Ezra Klein: And I imagine this is exacerbated by the rise of social media, where algorithms curate our feeds, often shielding us from anything remotely challenging or nuanced.

Bread and Butter over Battle Lines: What Do the Less Involved Really Care About?

Ezra Klein: So, we’ve talked about the media landscape, the anti-establishment sentiment, but what about ideology? Is there a sense in which the less involved are driven by unmet ideological needs, a yearning for a different political vision?

Yanna Krupnikov: While there might be some who feel politically homeless, our research suggests that the less involved are less driven by abstract ideological battles and more by tangible, “bread and butter” issues. They care about things like the cost of living, healthcare, education, jobs – issues that directly impact their lives.

Interestingly, we’ve found that the divide on economic issues is often greater within parties based on involvement levels than between parties. In other words, a highly involved Democrat and a less involved Democrat might disagree more strongly on economic policy than a less involved Democrat and a less involved Republican.

Trump Convicted: A Collective Shrug from the Less Involved

Ezra Klein: I want to circle back to the Trump conviction. It was a historic moment, but it doesn’t seem to have moved the needle much in the polls, particularly among the less involved. Why do you think that is?

Yanna Krupnikov: It’s a great question. I think a few factors are at play. First, for many, the conviction simply confirmed what they already believed about Trump’s actions. It wasn’t necessarily new information that fundamentally altered their perception of him.

Second, there’s a deep well of cynicism about politics in general. Many people, especially those less engaged, view the conviction as politically motivated, another example of partisan warfare rather than a genuine pursuit of justice.

And finally, let’s not forget the distrust of mainstream news sources. The conviction was widely covered, but if you’re someone who already distrusts those outlets, it’s unlikely to change your mind.